Mark walks us through the five points that agency buyers are looking for, as follows:

• Clean Financial Reporting: 3 years of accrual-style accounting records
• Key Performance Indicators: Be able to show the metrics you use to drive the business
• Staff: An exceptionally low caregiver turnover rate will raise your value
• Leadership Team: Buyers are looking at the horse AND the jockey(s)
• Referral Sources: Buyers want to see multiple referral sources

When asked how home care agency valuation is calculated (what your agency is worth), the answer was "It depends..." but then he gives a lot of details

Mark can be reached (in Atlanta - eastern time) on 770-955-1766 or at TheBraffGroup.com.

Home Care Heroes is produced and sponsored by Ankota - the Software for the Heroes of Home Care. We truly embrace the notion that caregivers and home care companies are heroes. Our top priorities simplicity, caregiver retention and outstanding service. Visit us at https://www.ankota.com.

Watch the interview on YouTube! 

Ken Accardi (00:01):

This episode of home care heroes is about selling or preparing to sell your home care agency. We have an outstanding expert named Mark Kulik from the Braff group who has been helping people to sell their home care agencies for the last 13 years.

Announcer (00:14):

Welcome to the home care heroes podcast, featuring trending topics and practical wisdom for success in home care. Here's your host, Ken Accardi.

Ken Accardi (00:29):

Welcome to home care heroes. We have a special guest today. His name is Mark Kulik and Mark is with the Braff group, a company that helps healthcare organizations to sell their companies. This is a topic that's coming up more and more. There's a lot of things going on in this space. I haven't known Mark for a long time, but I do know that he's been in healthcare for 35 years. He's been on the provider side, the technology side, and he's actually been with the Braff group, helping do transactions and buy and sell companies for 13 years. And he is also has two kids and he has grandkids. He's talking to us from Atlanta, Georgia. So with that as an introduction, let me say hi, Mark, and thanks for joining us on home care heroes,

Mark Kulik (01:08):

Ken, my pleasure. Thank you.

Ken Accardi (01:10):

Our audience, as you know, is mostly people who run non-medical home care agencies. They could be more on the private pay long-term care insurance side, or they could be on the Medicaid / VA side or some agencies cover all of that. But let's talk about what you're seeing in terms of transactions with people buying and selling companies in that non-medical home care space.

Mark Kulik (01:29):

Yeah, it has been interesting time. So certainly with COVID last year, the whole country and the whole world was impacted, but ironically, it was a strong year. It turned out to be a strong year relative to valuations of home care agencies, home health agencies in general, as well. I'd say thematically care in the home has come into the spotlight because of all the issues that took place with COVID last year. So even though there was certainly a national emergency in the pandemic, that particular set of circumstances led to a lot of people taking notice of care in the home and the benefits of providing care in the home, both across the whole spectrum, not just home care, but also home health and hospice as well. So we're seeing the highest valuations ever and relative to the M&A market. It definitely is a seller's market. This is the best environment we've ever seen in our history. So silver lining and despite last year's pandemic.

Preparing to sell your home care business 

Ken Accardi (02:23):

It seems like we're doing this podcast at just the right timing. So thank you for that as an intro, I guess if I'm an agency owner and I'm thinking, "Hey, I'm really proud of what I built, but I'm not expecting to run the agency forever." I want to think about selling my agency now since the market seems good, or maybe in the next year or two or three, what would you recommend, looking at these companies and doing these deals, what are some things they could do to really position themselves positively for a potential sale of the agency as an owner?

Mark Kulik (02:49):

Yeah. Great question. And certainly one that should be thought about, well in advance of exiting. And I say that because there's a number of our clients that come to us, there's something that some epiphany over a weekend and on a Monday morning they come and they say, Hey, I think I want to sell my business. And in a way we go, and certainly we take their lead and happy to be of service. But if you're looking at how to maximize the exit value, how to maximize the purchase price, it does take some planning like everything else in life that has any merit. So one key thing to keep in mind is it's kind of a simplistic formula. If you're trying to increase in drive the value of your business. The best thing to do is, is to focus in on the growth and the income side.

Mark Kulik (03:30):

Those are two obvious things that a buyer would find very attractive. My business is growing. It's producing a healthy income. The other half of the formula though, is to minimize the risk to the buyer of buying the business, minimize the risk. What do I mean? Well, if, if my business is growing and it's producing good income, but it's, it's in a risky position, I might lose a couple of key referral sources. I might have a higher level of employee turnover. Those are all risky things that a buyer may say, gosh, I love the size, but this is a risky proposition. If I buy the business, now it's kind of on shaky terms. So keep that in mind is if you're trying to be the most attractive entity or agency in the marketplace, think about from a buyer's perspective, how do they value your business? So, number one, what I would do is make certain that your financial house is in shape critical to any transaction is going to be accurate, clean, and clear financial statements.

Mark Kulik (04:26):

If at all possible they should be accrual-based as well. And an important note there for, for the agencies that are of the smaller size. Certainly I believe your accountant is probably telling you, we should be tracking everything via cash, cash based financial statements. And that's very true. I do the same thing myself that will help to minimize the tax burden that year end. But when it comes to a financial transaction, when a buyer's looking at your business, you really want to have a cruel based financial statements. Ideally you should have accrual-based financial statements for three years or so, because a buyer's going to want to look back certainly for a year or two to say, where's the business trending from and where does the business stand today? Is it heading in the right direction? Is it growing? So number one most important is to have clear, accurate, and clean financial statements.

Mark Kulik (05:17):

And ideally to have those in an accrual based format, ideally from a buyer's perspective. And by the way, you can maintain two sets of books. That's not a bad thing. If you want to have accrual-based financials re getting ready for, for sale, as well as having cash based financials that you run your business by relative to income taxes at the end of the year. So those can run a side-by-side and your accountant can certainly help you in that regard. So that's number one. Number two would be to have a set of key performance indicators, a management tool by which you run your business. So, for example, what referrals am I getting? The number of referrals am I getting, and is that leading to appointments and are appointments leading to assessments and our assessments leading to admissions, critical data that helps a buyer understand, wow, this company really has its act together.

Mark Kulik (06:04):

They're, they're managing and they're monitoring the right things. And look at that conversion rate, they've got a 92% conversion rate. Whomever is going out to meet with the family is doing a wonderful job of converting them over to a new client for our company, for our agency. So those KPIs are really important because buyers are going to say, show me how you run your business day to day. What's your dashboard look like? What things are you looking at? And beyond just those simplistic measures, you want to look at things like cash coming in billable hours, those kinds of things are also critically important. The third thing I would say is your staff. One thing I look at when I look at a company is what's the turnover like typically when there's a low turnover, that means that that owner is doing something very special for that business.

Mark Kulik (06:48):

They're making it a sticky or a Velcro environment. If you will, they're making it warm to the workers, the workers like being in there, they're comfortable. It's probably a combination of certainly wages, but all means wages are important, but it might be other things in terms of high touch, high feel, it might be all the things access to the owner. It might be I'm paying them daily. It might be, I've got a personal relationship with the owner. All those things are important. But when I see low turnover rates relative to industry norms, that points out to me, kind of a special environment for that particular company. So that's critically important as well. Are you, are you keeping people that you're recruiting or you having a high degree of turnover? If it's the latter, your business looks less attractive to a buyer because again, it's a greater risk, what's happening?

Mark Kulik (07:34):

Why is that turnover level so high? And then your leadership team, I would say is next important because I heard a, a buyer told me this can several years ago, it just stuck with me. And I loved it ever since we were talking about a particular client I had. And he said, you know, Mark, we bet we, the private equity firm we'd bet as much on the jockey, as we bet on the horse, as much as the Jackie's horse. And I thought, wow, what a great metaphor, right? Because what he was saying was, Hey, I love the business, but I want to make certain that the leadership, that, that, that the jockey is there to run the business and that it's going to be a running an efficient, effective way going forward. So that stuck with me. And I would also say, who is the leadership?

Mark Kulik (08:13):

If you're doing everything for your agency, if you're, if you're doing everything from the billing to, you're the point person for the agency to hiring, to, to administratively running the agency and you want to step out of the business and fully retire, the buyer's going to say, well, who's going to run the agency when you leave. Who's going to step in and do all those jobs. So be certain that the leadership you have is certainly trained to certainly confidence. I would say the closer you get to, to exiting your business, try delegating more because when it comes time to sell, you can tell a buyer, listen, I I've stepped back for the business. You know, Ken's running this part of it. Mark is running that part of it. And there he is running this part of it, that jockey team, if you will, will become very attractive, very valuable to that buyer.

Mark Kulik (08:57):

There's not a bench strength if you will, with buyers across the country. So when they're buying your business, when they're buying the horse, they're buying the jockeys that are there as well. And the last thing of course is referral sources of that goes without, without saying, but protect your referral sources, make sure you've got a comfortable relationship with them because that's the future stream of revenues to the business. And that goes back to the growth aspect and to the risk aspect. If those referral sources are diversified, if no one has more than 10% of your total referrals is coming to you, then that makes the buyer feel more comfortable saying, Hey, there's no risk of centralized 50%. For example, being centralized with one referral source, there's, there's lack of risk because it's very diversified. So that's kind of the ideal scenario from a buyer's perspective. And that's a very quick and high level way to understand how you can maximize the value of your business when it's time to exit.

Ken Accardi (09:48):

Perfect. That was so well outlined and laid out for everybody. It really comes down to clean financials, definitely a preference for accrual based financial systems. And if that doesn't make sense to you talk to your accountant, that's the way for example, that QuickBooks organizes things naturally. So that should be not a big problem, but if you've been doing all of your accounting in your check book or something like that., you clearly need to be more sophisticated in that. So that's when you need to do. The key performance indicators; I would say 99% of the people on this podcast that are listening, have probably heard of home care pulse. Home care pulse, if you haven'theard of them, the first thing you should do is look at their website. They have a lot of great content, but they also have this thing they do every year called the benchmark study.

Ken Accardi (10:36):

And it's really good study because it walks through things like sales and caregiver retention and financials, and it really shows how you should benchmark your company compared to others. And that's a great start, but then you, of course, as a business owner, you ask yourelf, "how am I making myself different and better?" And you should have your measurements that correspond with your values and be able to tell that story. I'm going to save staff for last because this home care heroes podcast is mostly about what do we do to attract and retain the best caregivers and that type of thing. So we'll come back to that in a minute. But then we talked about the leadership team. I love the jockey versus the horse analogy. And I guess that if you are in a region of your state and you have clients and caregivers and you're being purchased by somebody who also has a presence in your state, then there's the possibility that they're going to take your book of business and integrate it in.

Ken Accardi (11:33):

But I think what Mark implied there is that in a lot of cases, they're going to be buying your agency to add that geography to their company. So if you are thinking of stepping away, that's a really important point is to make sure you have deputies, like this person does the sales and this person is really focused on the recruiting and they are the backup scheduler and this person's doing the finances and the billing. To have the great jockeys and then referral sources are key.

Ken Accardi (12:01):

And having those power partnerships for referrals is also key. If you can say , "Anytime somebody needs help over at this assisted living," or "these discharge planners are really love us because we deliver for them all the time. "Those are the things that are going to make a difference.

Ken Accardi (12:17):

Relating it back to our core central topic here, caregivers being the heroes of home care, recruiting and retention is key. We've all seen the curves that the demand for home care is, is rising with the baby boomers passing retirement age, and also approaching home care age as our first boomers are in their upper seventies. And we expect the growth in demand for home care to go up. But also, if we looked at the curve of available caregivers, we know that that started declining already a good number of years back. So really the defining battle of home care in 2021 and beyond is the battle for caregivers. I think Mark made a salient point that wages are a key, but again, if you refer to home care pulse and you look at the reasons why caregivers leave, certainly what people get paid is on the list. But if you look at the 10 things on the list, the number one is consistent shifts...

Ken Accardi (13:02):

Caregivers will leave your agency, if you can't give them enough hours and they can make enough money. It's less about getting paid 25 cents more per hour with another agency and it's more about, being able to get those 30 hours or 40 hours or whatever they're trying to do. And then most of the other reasons caregivers leave are about communication and culture and really having a great agency that way. So that's why I wanted to swing back to staffing.

Ken Accardi (13:26):

Mark, let me turn it back to you for a second. You talked about how growth and income is where it starts, but then you said that risky things are bad. What are some of the things that they should safeguard against in that area? Earlier you mentioned high turnover rate or a risk of losing an important referral source and things like that. Can you talk about some things that you've seen or, or what advice you'd give to shore these concerns up if somebody's thinking about selling in the future.

Mark Kulik (13:57):

Yeah. all points well made and great question. So again, looking at this from the buyer's perspective, because that's really what matters, you know, the golden rule, he who has the gold rules and when a buyer is looking at your business, they're trying to say, okay what will make me pay more for this business? And it, conversely, what will make me pay less for this business? And to the extent that the, the buyer can't come up with answers to the latter question, they're going to pay more for your company because they'll say, gosh, there's so many good things about this company. I can't find these things that are really risky. So, so back to things like leadership, if it's new territory for that buyer, if it's, if it's new geography that they want to service, very few buyers have any sort of a bench strength to parachute somebody into your company to run it for you.

Mark Kulik (14:42):

So they're going to say to you, Ken, if you want to sell your business and your wife are leaving, you're selling your business. Do you have a capable Lieutenant, if you will, that can step in and, and be the local leader because we're based at a different state. So we're not going to be on site, but we need to have somebody accountable responsible that will be driven to results. And if you say, gosh, not really. You know, my wife was the, was the office manager. I did most of the work. They're gonna look at that business are gonna say, well, gosh, if you leave, there's a high risk. I've got to find someone to step in and replace. And you may say, Mark, no problem. We'll work for six more months. Well, that's okay for six months, but months seven. I still got to find someone to come back and backfill you and your wife.

Mark Kulik (15:22):

So having that Lieutenant as I referred to it, or second in command that really can step up. You can say, you know what? I've been grooming. This person, this person is knowledgeable. They know four corners of my business and they definitely want to continue their career. In fact, with you buying my company, there's a great chance. They can go further up the professional scale within your company and do more things for you. Maybe run a region after they've proven herself to you, but yes, I've hired a good person that will be the, the branch manager or the executive director or whatever title, your general manager, whatever, tell your company uses for that local person to manage. So that's the most critical thing is, is don't don't remove that leadership person. That's going to be responsible for results away from, from the business. Keep in mind the following, anybody that's buying your company or buying a company is certainly is going to look at your financial statements because that's kind of the scorecard for, for the, for the results of the company, but what they're really buying your company for us for the future and implied in their proposition to buy your company is listen, you've got a great company, you've done a great job with it, but I think when I buy it, it can be much bigger and much more profitable.

Mark Kulik (16:35):

And that's not an ego statement. That's just a matter of, you know what? I'm not buying your company for its history. I'm buying your company for its potential future. I want to buy a company that may be is, is doing X and business today. But under my ownership, it could do two X in five years. I can double the size in five years. That's really why they're giving you their cash today in exchange for ownership of the company today, they're exchanging their cash today for the future potential of the company. And to the extent that you can eliminate any risks to the future, to the prospective future, you've enhanced the value of your company because the buyer says, you know what? This is a good bet. I'm gonna I've got, I feel good about this. I'm gonna pay money right now, but I think it's a bargain because I think the company could be this much more valuable in the future.

Mark Kulik (17:17):

So that's number one thing I would do. Number two thing is I would have areas of growth. What are the things that you haven't gotten to yet? What are the risks? What are the, the is it the geography of an expanded to yet? Maybe you could have gone in and added one or two more branches, but you didn't have the cash or the capital to do that, but you definitely would grow in these areas. Maybe you're looking at different contracts that now that you're in your current size, maybe you're not big enough to the entity you're trying to contract with for referrals. But as soon as this company buys you out, that referral source to be much more comfortable contracting with you because they know you've got a bigger, more, more, more robust financial foundation behind you as a result. So Rose prospect's showing that buyer, these are the two or three things that I was I'm working on, or I could do, or, or I wanted to do, but couldn't get around to it either because lack of resources or lack of time, very important to a buyer because the buyer says, okay, that's growth, potential.

Mark Kulik (18:13):

That's valuable. That mitigates my risk of not growing. I like hearing that I'll pay more for your business. That's another key thing to keep in mind. Very important. They're not just buying you for today's snapshot worth of business. If you will, they're buying you for the potential of your company was their involvement. So second thing I would, I would keep acrylic important, critically important in mind, again, from a buyer's perspective.

Ken Accardi (18:35):

Fantastic. Going back to your first point, I have a story and I won't mention the specific names, but we work with an agency in Missouri that was started by a family and they had expanded to 10 offices and a pretty good size. And actually the person who brought in and code his technology as their software was running one of their 10 branches, but it also had stepped up and was the one that was, you know, bringing in the new technology. So you could tell highly regarded person to now they've been acquired and that individual has grown and they're in charge of the operations in Missouri and Oklahoma. So, so there, I think it was a really good plan of finding somebody who had that upward mobility and they gave them the opportunity to run one office and then take on a statewide initiative. And then the acquirer has actually expanded their role.

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Home Care Business Valuation 

Ken Accardi (19:24):

So it is really interesting that you could look at yourself and you're selling, but also your lieutenants and what you do to make the business move forward. Mark, let's move over to the topic that everybody I'm sure is very interested in, which is valuation. And interestingly, I was on a webinar just earlier this week with a guy named Steven Weiss, who is known in the industry as Steve, the hurricane. He does a lot of home care marketing bootcamps and things like that. And he actually spent a few minutes on the topic of valuation and he talked a little bit about that. They, that money side, they're going to look at your books. And he, he talked about a few things. He basically said that, you know, the buyer's going to look at how much profit you're making, right? So you take your revenue minus your costs and that's your profit.

Ken Accardi (20:11):

And that the acquirers are looking at multiples of that as their evaluation mechanism. But then he also talked about how bigger agencies drive a higher multiple. So he said, if you're a million dollar agency, that's great, but once you hit 3 million, that's another threshold, 5 million is another threshold and, and things like that. So that was kind of a framework that he threw out and, and I realize every deal is different, but if you wanted to share some rules of thumb that people can think about for valuation, what, what kind of thoughts and framework would you share with us?

Mark Kulik (20:44):

Yeah, great question. And the honest answer is depends. It depends on all sorts of factors. Geography certainly depends upon size size matters, absolutely. In terms of a buyer's valuation. And it also matters where the business is and the potential for growth. Certainly if you're in an urban area with a lot of population, you have a lot, a lot, a lot of competition, but there's a lot of chance for growth. If you're out in a very rural area, there's only so much growth you're going to gain in a rural area because there's only so much density of population out in the rural area. But I would say that all buyers look at buying a business in terms of multiples of EBITDA. And here's an acronym that, that is a, is a subject matter unto itself. But it's a, the acronym stands for earnings before interest taxes, depreciation, and amortization.

Mark Kulik (21:30):

And I realized not everyone's an accountant but loosely, loosely can EBIT to equate to free cashflow w what's the free cash flow that's being generated by my agency. And that might be a better way to look at it for most listeners. How much cash did you really take out of the business at the end of the year is a loose equivalent to two adjusted EBITDA. So in that regard, the buyer is saying, okay, how much EBITDA is being generated? And they'll have a multiple times that EBITDA and that's all they'll come up with a purchase price. So I would say the guidelines that were shared by Steve were probably accurate, fairly accurate. However, in this business, the larger you get, the bigger you grow, the much more valuable your company is. So I'll give you a couple of extreme examples that took place last year.

Mark Kulik (22:14):

These are, these are unicorns. All right. So in September of last year, Providence service corporation bought simpler. Simpler is a Northeastern, predominantly Medicaid, a waiver business. They paid $575 million for a simpler. And then during the same month, a private equity group Centerbridge partners and Vistria group, they paid 1.4 billion with a B billion for help at home, which is a Midwestern home care Medicaid dominant business as well. Those are both large entities, hundreds of million dollars in revenues, but that does give your listeners some, some indication of there are major buyers out there that are absolutely valuing home care. And I would say again, these last couple of years, home care has come into the spotlight. They've used to be thought of as kind of a post acute care service and more and more people are viewing it as a solution to pre acute care.

Mark Kulik (23:06):

How do we keep people out of the hospital where it's grossly more expensive, you know, much better to suspend some money on the front end, caring for a patient than letting them go into the acute care setting and come back out on the backend. So again, for reference points for your listeners last year in, in, in COVID environment, there were 30 transactions that were completed in the private duty space of that. 16 of those were from private equity. So my earlier point about 53%, about half of all activity is being generated. Acquisition activity is being generated by private equity, which are financial buyers. And they look to buy your business. They look to hold it for four to seven years and then look to sell it for a larger profit on the back end. So you've got kind of this perfect storm environment right now where not only are the strategic buyers looking to buy, but private equity buyers looking to buy as well. And for for businesses that I mentioned to you, that meet that criteria that we discussed a few minutes ago that are clean, profitable, good culture, et cetera, they're paying premiums right now. So it's a great time for home care companies that are saying, you know what, we're doing our planning, we're thinking maybe one or two years from now, we're going to retire. This is a good time. I think we're going to be in a good environment here for, for a couple of years to go,

Ken Accardi (24:21):

Thank you for telling those stories. And it does sound like the Medicaid side is very attractive as well as the private duty side. So there, there are a lot of big things going on on both sides. I know that since our audience is home care agencies, where I guess the expression is preaching to the choir here. But one thing that is interesting about the population demographic not only is our country aging and things like that. But if we think about the baby boomers, they're the, they're the same people who invented a whole lot of things that didn't exist before. Like the big home in the suburbs didn't exist before the baby boomers and the minivan didn't exist before the baby boomers. And then when they got a little older and the kids got older, the SUV was created by the, by the baby boomers.

Ken Accardi (25:03):

So this is the same market that's now coming into the home care market. They have the income and they want the comfort in life and they are going to get to innovate. There's actually an interesting book out of the age lab at MIT, across the river from me here that is called the longevity economy. And hopefully I'll do another episode and I'll grab somebody from the AIDS lab who can talk about that. But, but really that's the premise of the book is looking at this population. So I really do think that it's a bright future for home care in a lot of ways. And again, I mean, we look for the silver linings of COVID and one of them certainly is that there's a lot more focus on aging at home, as opposed to institutional care for so many reasons. And, and again, thanks, everybody's listening because we consider your caregivers and you for being in home care to be heroes. And that's the premise of this podcast. All right. So I think we're going to bring it into the home stretch here. Mark, thank you for sharing all this knowledge freely and everything you do work for a company called the Braff group, B R a F F. Can you tell us about the Braff group and take it from there?

Mark Kulik (26:03):

Yeah, we're a 23 year old company. We've been doing this for about 23 years and we represent only owners like your listeners. We don't do any work on the what's called the buy side. We don't do any, do any of, of don't generate any fees from, from doing work for buyers. A hundred percent of what we do is on, on the owners side, the seller's side we're national in scope. My particular focus within our company is in home health, home care, hospice, and private duty. That's all I do. It's all my team does seven days a week representing sellers. And our job really is to help owners prepare to go to market that is to help them get in position, to go to market, to maximize their exit value the purchase when it comes time to to make a decision to sell their business.

Mark Kulik (26:46):

So very common that we have relationships for five and 10 years where we're consulting with that owner. Talk to the owner, are you doing this? Are you trying this don't do that. So we were trying to give them advice kind of board level vice and that not many private duty owners have boards, but most larger companies have boards and the board members are there to give them some insight to the horizon, to give them some bigger picture advice. And that really is what we do. We provide that bigger picture advice as to how to position your company, to maximize the value when it comes time to exit. So that that's 99% of what we do. And of course, when it comes time to exit, then we stand right by right alongside shoulder to shoulder with the owners to walk through the entire process from start to finish.

Mark Kulik (27:29):

And it is a process. It is laborious. It is fatiguing. I don't mean to discourage anyone, but if you haven't done it before, the question becomes more than likely your, your, a home care agency is probably 80 or 90% of your personal wealth. Do you really want to risk going through that process being a rookie, if you will, at that particular task, or do you want to go ahead and get a team around you? So the team that we build or that we suggest gets built is certainly someone like ourselves that is experienced with dealing with buyers knows how to get a transaction done. We team up with your lawyer. You certainly have a family lawyer that's going to help. It's been guiding you all along, but we'll serve in the transaction as well. And then thirdly your accountant, because more than likely, you've got a CPA that you've been depending upon, and you've been using, and the three of us come together and form a virtual team to protect you. I protect the integrity of the transaction. The lawyer protects you from legal issues and obstacles that may come up during the during the negotiation process. And then your accountant is trying to protect you from unnecessary taxes that you'd pay because of the transaction. So we work collaboratively looking to protect every owner as best interest in the transaction.

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Contacting the Braff Group

Ken Accardi (28:40):

Fantastic. And I guess the last thing is on, I'll put this in the notes. How do people get in touch with you and the Braff group?

Mark Kulik (28:46):

Yeah. So a phone number is (770) 955-1766. My email address is M as in Mark, M a Kulak. So it's M K U L I k@thebraffgroup.com. You can go to our website and click on a link there. That'll take you to me as well. The Braff group.com or my LinkedIn page. Just go to LinkedIn, if you have LinkedIn and key and Mark Kulik and my profile will pop up. So those are several different ways to reach me. Okay.

Ken Accardi (29:18):

All right. Well, Hey, thank you, Mark. This has been really, really interesting and informative, and thank you for doing this for our listeners today and have a fantastic day,

Mark Kulik (29:26):

Ken. My pleasure. Thank you again for the invitation.

Speaker 2 (29:29):

Thanks for joining us today on the home care heroes podcast, home care heroes is produced by Ankota the software for the heroes of home care. You can listen to back episodes by visiting 4 home care heroes.com. That's the number four than the words home care heroes dot com.